Usury, Abortion, & Notre Dame--Oh My!

A very good family friend and I started a debate about Obama speaking at and receiving an honorary degree from Notre Dame. He made the argument that if the Catholic Church is to be consistent, then a banker could never receive an honorary degree in economics from a Catholic institution because lending money for interest is in all instances usury and therefore against Biblical & Church teaching. A crying baby who was ready to go home to bed interrupted our conversation. Facebook then became the medium for our continued debate. I found our conversation interesting. I hope you do too. In addition, I hope that I adequately and accurately defended Catholicism. If I am in error on Church teaching, please leave a comment & let me know! I'm far from a perfect debater or apologist, but I'm trying to find my voice…

My initial message via Facebook:

This article might clear things up about usury & the Church. Basically, the Church didn't change-- the reality of money & economics did. Usury is still a sin-- but lending for interest is not always usarious anymore as money is not a consumable as it used to be in ancient times. The article explains it better than I ever could: http://www.catholicculture.org/tools/email.cfm?itemvalue=1&itemtype=Library Document&id=646&title=The%20Red%20Herring%20of%20Usury

So yes, a banker may receive an honorary degree from a Catholic institution provided he is otherwise a moral, upstanding individual. Obama's views are anti-Catholic values and therefore he should not. Besides, matters of life & death always trump other sins. As an aside-- did you see how they covered up all Catholic signage and symbols when he spoke at Georgetown? What's up with that? It didn't fit in with their "look" they go with for Presidential addresses. I guess God clashes these days. Shame on "Catholic" Georgetown for allowing it and shame on Obama's White House for requesting it.

I always enjoy our debates :) Hope to see you soon!

His reply:

Having been involved in setting up the event for the Clinton visit in 1996, I can tell you that the White House (and any elected office) will define what they want the backdrop to be. It has nothing to do with what is normally there. It never has to do with covering up anything--it has to do with defining the backdrop. Again, Obama's opponents are desperately trying to find fault with him by distorting facts such as the Georgetown visit. The White House wanted the backdrop to be flags. This is not uncommon.

Also, Obama's values are not that far apart from the Catholic Church. The only major difference is stem cell research (which many Catholics support) and government's role in preventing abortion. Obama does not believe in abortion as a birth control option. He believes that, as decided by the U.S. Supreme Court, that goverment intervention is unconstitiutional. I can tell you that most "pro-choice" people like me are also "pro-life". We just can't pass the Right To Life litmus test, because that organization (like most) is trying to prop itself up as a power broker. (There are also pro-choice women who are pro-abortion, of which I think is a result of self-indulgent thinking.)

Also, Pope Jean Paul II ordered all Catholic clergy serving in Congress (and other political offices) to resign. The rationale was that the clergy were supposed to be representing the church and not a lay consituency. Why now are rogue bishops telling people that if they vote for candidate X, they are going to hell? Why did some of these rogue bishops spiritually threaten Catholics if they voted for Kerry (a Catholic)? This contradicts the direction that Pope Jean Paul II took the Church with regard to politics. The clergy should spend their time policing their colleagues with respect to conduct regarding children and influencing their flock on a more personal/community level.

With all of that said, I still believe that the Catholic Church makes a more positive contribution than any other religious organization around the world when it comes to values and representing the direction defined by Jesus.

My response:

I'm not really all that worked up about Obama using a backdrop at Georgetown. It makes sense for him to do so. The President is in a position where he needs to address all Americans and I can understand the need to not isolate Americans that don't share Catholic beliefs & values. The right-wing media definitely blew it out of proportion. However, I think Georgetown should have offered a location where there wouldn't have been conflicts regarding the background. As a Catholic institution, they should preserve their values just as the President needs to preserve neutrality.

However, I find your statement that Obama's beliefs aren't far from the Catholic Church very offensive. There are huge differences. Embryonic stem cell research is paramount to abortion-- of which both are absolute, intrinsic evils and should never, ever be permitted. Just because you don't think abortion is a valid birth control option doesn't make you pro-life. It's a way of rationalizing that it's ok for women to murder their babies. If a 27 week baby is born prematurely, we scramble to try to save him/her. If a pregnant mother is attacked and the baby dies, the assailant can be charged with murder. But if a woman decides she doesn't want the baby, all of a sudden it isn't considered a human being, it's just a "bunch of tissue," and can be crushed and ripped out of her body. You can't have it both ways. As for embryonic stem cell research, just because some people who claim to be Catholic say they're ok with it, that doesn't mean that's the Catholic view. Anyone who is a faithful Catholic and loyal to the magesterium and understands that life begins at conception cannot in good conscience believe embryonic stem cell research is ok. Besides-- there are lots of undifferentiated stem cells available without moral consequence-- placentas and umbilical cord blood have thousands of stem cells. But both get thrown away every day when a baby is born. Instead a lot of people think it's easier to destroy a tiny embryonic baby. It just doesn't make sense. As for Roe v. Wade, I believe it was a poorly defended case and a prime example of the Supreme Court legislating from the bench. If it comes down to a right to privacy, then a lot of things we do in the ER should be illegal. We shouldn't be able to stop people from committing suicide, we shouldn't force drug overdoses to stay until they're medically stable, we shouldn't keep drunks from wandering out into traffic, doctors should be able to assist people to commit suicide-- it's their right to privacy, afterall. Also interesting-- the woman defended as "Roe" in the case is now a pro-life advocate.

Maybe I'm (very) biased, but I've held a 23 week baby that had just died (born prematurely at home). It's far from a bunch of tissue. He had a perfect little face, 10 fingers and 10 toes, just small. The baby was born trying to breathe. That same baby could have been legally aborted. How is that ok?

I think the comment about the sex abuse scandal was a bit unfair. It was a disgraceful and horrific thing that happened and can never be adequately amended, but thankfully there have been lots of reforms made in light of the scandal. For example, every week in the Church paper there is a number to call to report abuse and in order to volunteer with children/teens, you have to attend a training and receive a certification. In an institution the size of the Catholic Church, scandals have and will happen (not that that makes it ok, but it's an imperfect institution with imperfect people in it). It's funny to me, however, that any time someone wants to criticize the Church they bring up the sex abuse scandal, but if someone wants to argue against Evangelicals they never bring up the sex scandals (secretly gay ministers, etc.) of the past decade. No one picks on the Episcopalians for ordaining women & gay ministers. The Catholic Church seems to get the most criticism.

Which bishops have said people are going to hell for voting for a particular candidate? I'd be interested to see names & quotations. The Church doesn't teach that. The closest I've heard (which has probably been misunderstood by many, like a lot of Church teachings) is that if you specifically vote for a pro-choice/pro-abortion candidate because of that stance you are in a state of mortal sin because of your action to protect/promote the evil of abortion. Just because you voted for the pro-choice candidate doesn't automatically damn you to hell. It's a matter of intention, knowledge, and consent. That's in the Catechism. Mortal sin leads to hell. Not voting for Kerry necessarily. Hypothetically, if there was an election and both candidates were pro-choice and you voted in your best conscience for the candidate you thought would do the most good, you would not be guilty of a mortal sin. You don't have a pro-life option in that instance. So by voting for the candidate you believe to be the best choice you aren't committing a mortal sin.

I think a lot of the problem is that the Catholic Church is sadly misunderstood and there are a couple generations of very poorly catechized Catholics running around right now-- my generation especially. The "I'm OK, You're OK" mindset just doesn't hold up. Everything isn't OK. There are very clear right & wrong in the world and I think a lot of Catholics have fallen into the trap of moral relativism. If you really study and get to the root of Catholic teaching, it's both consistent with Jesus' teachings, most importantly, and also very logical.

Just curious what you thought about the usury article. You never commented on it.

I always learn a lot from discussing these "hot topics" with you and I appreciate that you put up with my conservative opinions :) I have a lot of respect for you & your opinions, even if I don't agree with all of them.

Familia Recap

I went to Familia this morning. If you're not familiar with Familia (That's some fun alliteration, assonance, & consonance right there!), you should check it out at http://www.familiausa.net. Bring it to the attention of your parish and get a group started. We are a poorly catechized generation and programs like this will help us grow in our faith all the while building & strengthening community.

Today we discussed the Eighth Commandment and spousal love in reference to section VII of Mulieris Dignitatem, Pope John Paul II's papal encyclical about the vocation of women (Ladies, he refers to the feminine genius! How often do we hear that—and from a man! May I interject a "Santo Subito"?). The Catechesis portion, while always a good refresher on morality, was not earth shattering for me. However, the Gospel was. From John 3:25-30    

Now a dispute arose between the disciples of John and a Jew ¹³ about ceremonial washings.

So they came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, the one who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you testified, here he is baptizing and everyone is coming to him."

John answered and said, "No one can receive anything except what has been given him from heaven.

You yourselves can testify that I said (that) I am not the Messiah, but that I was sent before him.

The one who has the bride is the bridegroom; the best man, ¹⁴ who stands and listens for him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice. So this joy of mine has been made complete.

He must increase; I must decrease."

"He must increase; I must decrease." Those words struck me—truly like a big smack to the forehead. John the Baptist was referring to his work preparing the way for Christ—but it is so true in our own lives that we often must decrease so that Christ may increase in our lives. If we took the time to decrease—decrease our focus on ourselves, tasks, etc., we would likely find ways to increase in prayer and our relationship with Christ. It struck me as true also for our relationships with others. If we decrease, we allow others to increase. Think of what implications that could have in our marriages and relationships with others! By decreasing, we can allow others to increase and grow. Powerful—but hard to do! It also tied in nicely with this passage from Ephesians 5:

Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ. ⁶

Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.

For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.

As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her

to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word,

that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church,

because we are members of his body.

"For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."

This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.

In any case, each one of you should love his wife as himself, and the wife should respect her husband.

St. Paul is calling us—nay, challenging us to "decrease" as John the Baptist did in yielding to Christ as the Messiah. He is extending it to our earthly relationship with our spouses. By subordinating ourselves, submitting ourselves to one another fully and loving each other as our "own flesh," we are preparing ourselves for our full relationship with Christ as it will be realized in Heaven. I think in our modern day "all-about-me" world, we could all stand to decrease a little bit (or a lot…). If everyone became a little less self-focused and a little more others-focused and Christ-focused, can you imagine what would happen? The results would be amazing.

Our discussion about this topic led one of the women in my group to share the following prayer. I plan to pray it so that I might decrease and allow others and, most of all, Christ to increase.

O Jesus! meek and humble of heart, Hear me.
From
the desire of being esteemed,
Deliver me, Jesus.

From the desire of being loved...
From the desire of being extolled ...
From the desire of being honored ...
From the desire of being praised ...
From the desire of being preferred to others...
From the desire of being consulted ...
From the desire of being approved ...
From the fear of being humiliated ...
From
the fear of being despised...
From the fear of suffering rebukes ...
From the fear of being calumniated ...
From the fear of being forgotten ...
From the fear of being ridiculed ...
From the fear of being wronged ...
From the fear of being suspected ...

That others may be loved more than I,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be esteemed more than I ...
That, in the opinion of the world,
others may increase and I may decrease ...
That others may be chosen and I set aside ...
That others may be praised and I unnoticed ...
That others may be preferred to me in everything...
That others may become holier than I,
provided that I may become as holy as I should…

 

Amen.

First Entry!

Wow, my first blog entry! Ok, so it's not *really* the first time I've blogged, but I'm going to try to keep this one up. Keep me motivated! I would love suggestions for things to blog about :)

Let's start from the very beginning... a very good place to start... oh, oops... /end musical reference.

As you could guess, I'm 1.) Catholic, 2.) a mommy, and 3.) I intend to confess here! I'm married to my wonderful husband of almost 3 years (dated for 3 before that in college while we both finished school). I'm mommy to one daughter, 14 months old. I'm also a Registered Nurse in an emergency department-- that's where I get to be my tough chick alter ego :) I'm thankful for a job (especially these days) and especially one that allows me to feed my family and spend lots of time with them, too. We are faithful Catholics and working every day to be better Christians-- some days better than others, but I hope we're passing on a deeply rooted faith to our daughter.

Today is Easter. I am so joyful in my heart right now. Christ is RISEN! Hallelujah! Doesn't it feel good to say that again? I really feel I grew a lot spiritually this Lenten season and that Jesus spoke to me and blessed me in many ways. I'm so thankful for that. Did Jesus touch your heart to prepare you for this Easter season? I would love to hear how He did! Please leave comments and tell me about it. What a wonderful Savior we have!

I'm looking forward to Easter Mass this morning with my family, breakfast, Easter baskets, and just lots and lots of loving family time. I'm so very blessed to have in-laws that love me as their own daughter. My biological family lives a couple hours away. Hopefully we will see them in the next week or 2. Do you have any family traditions at Easter? I'm trying to find some traditions to institute in my family. My daughter is young still, but I'd like to have some traditions in mind for next year so we can start at a young age with her. I really want her to grow up knowing far more about Easter than bunnies and chocolate eggs. That's all fine and fun, but I want her to know WHY we have chocolate eggs! I'd love to hear about your traditions. Maybe we'll incorporate them into our family!

Hopefully someone that may read this will relate to my struggles & triumphs is this wonderful vocation of Catholic motherhood. We certainly have the best but hardest job in the world-- but what a wonderful role model we have in Our Mother Mary. Thank God for her and her intercession on our behalf!

I pray you have a Blessed Easter full of joy and love.